So you're kind of asking how sales comes down to creating and having conversations. So that's kind of the two pieces, right? You talked a lot about conversations on your last podcast.

So, you know, you can think of creating conversations as marketing and then having conversations is like, how do you actually talk to another human that moves them to

Let me give you an example. There's an enormous idea for a very large, enormous American, let's say fast-moving consumer goods company.

There's an idea conceived by Ogilvy Australia. It has made that company in excess of a billion dollars in the last 10 years. It's still running. It runs in something like 100 markets. Still useful today.

For that

I think there's this stigma that brand marketing and performance marketing are sort of at odds with each other. I very much follow kind of the sort of thought that brand marketing is performance marketing. Everything is some form of performance marketing. It just might not be as attributable. So like the ability to actually map back to every single