Hey, it's Millie and welcome to the generalist world podcast. This is a show where I interview people from the

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generalist world community and we talk things like the future of work, careers, predictions, their hot takes, and really

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understand what their squiggly careers have looked like. So, if you're a generalist who feels like they're living in a specialized world, this is the

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podcast for you. No love. Hi. Hi. I don't know why I start every episode

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with a little bit of a dance. Well, I mean, you could be doing Barry Manalow and Her Name was She was a joke.

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That's a great way to start. I'm actually looking forward to the new Taylor Swift album just because Showgirl

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is no longer going to be owned by Barry Metalo and that song should buy a Natural Death.

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I love it. This is a fantastic fantastic way to start the episode. Nola, I'm so

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excited to chat. I have been on your podcast before and so it's kind of cool to like switch places and to get to

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interview you. I'm gonna try something a little bit different. I'm wondering

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people who are listening, if they were to get to the end of this podcast, what are some of the threads that you think

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they might take away? Why should Why should someone listen? Why should someone be like, "Yep, I don't yet know,

1:16

Nola, but why why am I going to tune in here?" Uh I really think the value of lived

1:23

experience really is something useful to share. When I look at the people that I

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like to follow, the people that I really respect who I really feel are the future

1:35

of you know how we are going to live and how we're going to work. It's the people who actually have the ability to braid

1:42

their mastery in with their daily life. And basically you're weaving

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the future, right? So people like you, for example, like you've had all of these adventures that you've

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combined into a life that nobody else would have created, right? And so I look at like, you know, experts like Linda

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Graten, my coach Carrie Twig, all kinds of different people where they they create value just by sharing their

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experiences. And a lot of the things that I share really comes from the lived experience that I have. Right? So I

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think we're getting into a world where credentials are going to go away. And that ability to weave and share stories

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not based on clinical expertise or academic expertise that's really going

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to be valuable. And so at the end of the episode, I want to challenge you to say,

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can you do that? Even if you have all of these degrees, right? Do you have the ability to

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share a narrative that's really going to help other people see themselves in what

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you've done? What a fantastic answer. I think I'm going to use that question in all future

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episodes. That was really cool. So speaking of narrative, I mean you are a LinkedIn top voice. You are really

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known, really well known and respected in this kind of remote work future of work space. What's your narrative? How

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would you describe it to somebody else? I'd like to highlight at this moment that Millie is also a LinkedIn top

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voice. So that's something that's changed since I last interviewed her. So let's just put

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that out there, too. So um in answer to your question, my narrative is really

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the world works better when we have the ability to be flexible and respect

3:32

people in terms of what they need and they want from work and life. That's really what it comes down to. And

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the instinct to control, I think, is one of the worst things that

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we've ever really embedded into work. M say more.

3:53

In terms of at work, people work best when they've got agency and autonomy,

3:58

not when somebody is actually watching them and surveilling them and tracking every minute. I have a pet peeve when

4:05

people talk about time theft because you left five minutes early. Well, you know,

4:10

chances are you showed up five minutes early or you worked over your lunch or

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you did somebody a favor, right? So when you're actually looking at time and

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effort at such a micromanaging level, you're really deep into control and

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therefore you're really impinging on agency and autonomy, right? And you're not getting the best out of people

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because honestly the people that I've worked with that I've really enjoyed working with are the people who show up

4:38

and they do the work because it's meaningful for them, right? It's purposeful for them. You know, sure,

4:44

everybody has bills to pay. you know, you're you're doing work for a reason, right? But the people who

4:51

do really good work are there anyway, right? And they're going to be doing

4:58

that work whether you're watching them or they're not. When people when work is unfair, when when policies and

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procedures and scenarios and and situations are unfair, that's where you get compliance, deviant compliance,

5:11

right? People start acting in de deviant bea behaviors. And this is where you get like the mouse trackers, right? You put

5:17

the mouse on, you know, something that that's going to make it the mouse seem like it's it's moving, right? There's a

5:23

whole billion-dollar business on how to avoid the surveillance that corporate

5:28

puts in place, right? So, just from that point alone, it's like, do you really think that your surveillance is paying

5:35

off? What are you really gaining by doing that? Yes. A thousand times yes. I was just

5:41

thinking it's so timely for me. I've beenve been going through something this week, something personal, and I am so

5:50

grateful that I control my calendar and that I am not beholden to someone

5:56

watching my mouse click. Like, I've literally I've needed to cancel calls. I've needed to shuffle things around

6:01

because I'm like, I am not going to show up at my best because this is just how life shakes out. Something's going on

6:08

personally. I'm going to commit to these things at a later date, but I need to shuffle things around. And it it gave me

6:15

a little bit of like anxiety and a bit of the fear of like, wow, what what a privilege that I get to do this, but so

6:22

many others don't. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yesterday I had to go to Toronto twice. Both of my kids

6:27

had different issues, right? So, I wasn't planning to do that. I mean, that's four hours commuting that I I didn't block off, right? So

6:34

having that that ability to be where you need to be it to be in the places where you can't delegate, you can't be

6:41

replaced, it it's incredibly urgent and you know families are going to be better off. You

6:48

do better work because you're more invested because you feel respected and

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you feel like you belong because you're being respected. I mean you have been living and

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breathing this since before it was cool like 2012. I think you started working

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remote. I started advocating for it in 2011. I' I've lived in the same place for 27

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years, but what's changed is the traffic patterns, right? So,

7:17

geographically, I'm 45 minutes north of Toronto, but if you add in traffic, I mean, we made Nile Hin walk to his gig.

7:25

The traffic in Toronto is horrendous. Like, worldwide, it's known to be horrendous. My commute grew from 45

7:32

minutes to two hours each way and I never moved. Wow. Right. And so when my kids were little,

7:39

I'm from a very small family. Like my in-laws passed away and it was just my

7:45

mom and dad who lived here, right? But my my parents my mom was 41 when I was born. So when they became grandparents,

7:52

they were like 75. So I could leave my kids with them, but

7:57

they couldn't really handle them for more than a couple of hours at a time, right? So it was like I was at the point

8:02

where I was seeing my kids an hour a day. And that wasn't the kind of parent I wanted to be, right? So that's where

8:10

it just so happened that somebody who had the same babysitter as I did, she actually worked for the same company I

8:15

did in a different division and she had had so much tenure that they couldn't actually give her any more raises unless

8:21

she actually changed jobs. So they offered her remote work and I'm like, well, if you can do it for her, why

8:27

can't you do it for me? And that's that's where these stories are actually really important because having a role

8:33

model and knowing that it's possible for somebody else to do something. This is where I love this is why I interviewed

8:40

you for my podcast because the ability you've had to really drive community and and form all of these connections from a

8:47

remote island in Scotland when you're actually from New Zealand.

8:52

That's quite the story, right? But having that role model to say, "Hey,

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this is even just like a tiny bit of what she's managed to achieve from such a remote location." It's really important. M how do you advise that

9:06

people advocate for themselves? Because I imagine that someone listening to this might be like, "Yes, this is me. I'm a

9:14

parent." For whatever reason, you have life commitments and uh maybe they're calling you back into the office. Do you

9:20

have any advice on how to advocate and like negotiate to actually have more

9:26

flexible work? So, what I did was different than what you would do now, right? So at the time

9:33

I made it very clear of what it was that I needed. I had to actually change jobs because the job that I was in, they

9:39

didn't even give us VPN access. We had desktops. Nobody had laptops at that time, right? So like it's completely

9:46

different than what it was for me. So I joined pilots and you know they were testing things out. So now we're way

9:53

past that pilot stage, right? Because co essentially was the world's pilot. So the advocacy that you would have to do

9:59

right now is really truly actually understand what flexibility it is you need, right? Some people just need the

10:05

ability to shift their start time and their end time, right? So they can go to pick up kids from school or whatever

10:11

their their obligation is, right? So what kind of flexibility is it you really need that facilitates your life?

10:17

Because if you're really just asking for time flexibility and in that ability to shift your shift, you probably it's not

10:24

as big an ask it is to work remotely from a beach in Spain. So you have to get really clear on what it is you're

10:30

asking for for one. And then you have to understand what the policies are that the organization has, but also what the

10:38

true mindset is about flexibility, right? What are the the obstacles? What

10:44

are the blockers? What are the things that are misunderstood? You know, a lot of people think that, you know, if you

10:50

are working from home and you're doing laundry at the same time and you have a nap at at lunch and whatnot, it means

10:56

you're not working, right? Because they have this perception about what that means to to work at a location that's

11:03

not an office. But it's the same sort of thing. The office that I used to work in, we had a nap room. What's the

11:10

difference between having a nap here or actually going down the hallway, signing in and having a nap in the nap room,

11:16

right? It makes no difference, right? But you have to understand your organization and truly what the values

11:23

and the what the level of trust is, right? So that's where you need clarity.

11:28

You need clarity for yourself, but you also need clarity for what your organization needs, what your manager

11:34

does, you know, because everybody has bias, right? Yes. Okay. So, I'm hearing you need to

11:40

be clear on what you want so that you can go and ask your manager or leadership exactly what that is.

11:46

Yeah. Exactly. That's right. And you need to also

11:51

be prepared for what happens when they say no. So, what do you what does that no mean to you? What action are you

11:57

going to take? Like run the scenario, right? If I if I propose this and I negotiate this and the answer is no,

12:03

what's my next step? Right? So, do you change teams to a manager who's more accommodating?

12:09

Because some organizations are letting individual managers run that, right? Is it a matter of just switching teams? Can

12:17

you move other ways in the organization? I had a really bad car accident in 2018.

12:22

I hit a fully loaded double car cement hauler. Wow.

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I had pneumonia and I didn't know it and my lung collapsed at the wheel and so I passed out. And then after that I was

12:34

off work for for two months. I made million people late for work, you know. So there's a metric. But when I went

12:41

back to work I was like okay I don't want to commute anymore. Like there was no need for me to be there. I could have

12:46

done all the work that I needed to do at home. It's a risk that I didn't want to actually take. Cuz what I actually

12:52

learned was in Ontario the law is such that you need to be 100% healthy before

12:57

you get behind the wheel. I thought being sick was my defense. Being sick was what almost lost me my my license.

13:06

Wow. Right. They actually pulled my license to, you know, I had to have brain scans and all that stuff because

13:12

they had to determine exactly why I passed out. Right. Wow. And that almost lost my license and they

13:18

refused. They said that that was not a sufficient reason to be at home permanently. So, I

13:25

switched jobs because I'm like, if almost dying wasn't actually good enough for you, then I don't know what

13:31

to do for you. Yeah. Yeah. So, I got the only remote job in that company that is actually located where I

13:37

live, which is actually pretty awesome achievement and then they restructured and I started doing this.

13:44

Amazing. And so, what does your dayto-day look like now? If someone was to meet you at a networking event and

13:49

they're like, "So, what do you get up to, Noah? What what kind of things do you do?" So I'm really building like a

13:54

portfolio career. So essentially what I'm doing is consulting. I'll work with organizations or even individuals if

14:02

they approach me to actually figure out what is the best version of flexibility

14:08

that you want to offer in your organization. So what does that look like? But it it's not like a thing that you just bolt on to your organization.

14:15

If you're going to do it well, you really need to actually filter it through your organization. And it stops starts from the top down. So it's

14:22

whatever the CEO really believes and then you have to implement that and and then cascade that through the

14:27

organization, right? And it involves leadership, it involves management, it

14:33

involves communication, you know, there there's tax implications if you're actually letting people work across the

14:39

globe, right? So what does that look like from a compliance perspective, privacy, cyber security, like it's very

14:46

layered, right? And if you don't have a plan for how all of that plays out in your organization, you know, you're

14:52

going to run into issues where you've got risks. And that could be personnel risk, that could be turnover risk, that

14:57

could be, like I said, security risks. That's what I do with with organizations

15:02

is how do you craft this in such a way that it's going to set you up to thrive and your people up to thrive as well.

15:10

But, you know, I'm doing this in certain ways because, you know, there's working directly with organizations, but there's also speaking. So, this is where I'm I'm

15:17

part of the speakers pod with Millie in generalist world. And, you know, she's she's honestly the most active person

15:23

there. But, I did actually step up and actually apply for a TED talk, global TED talk. I tried to get other people to

15:30

to apply with me. I got one guy who's actually kind of interested and start talking about it, but I don't know if

15:35

anybody else applied. I got denied. Oh, Bubba. I imagine it's very competitive.

15:41

Well, it was global, right? So there I think there were like seven different cities that were going to be doing it. I

15:46

would have had to go to Chicago and there was there were only picking like 10 people from each city and then only

15:53

one person from each city would then go to like the final event in Vancouver. So

15:58

the chances the odds of it were never good to begin with. But it was

16:03

presenting an idea that I do really think that is going to be valuable for the future of work. And that's where how

16:09

do you tell your stories in such a way where location is not the center of the

16:14

story, right? Because so many people, what I've noticed over the years is so

16:20

many people the way that they they mentor people and they train people that location piece is really important to

16:27

them about how things were achieved, right? So you go to the restaurants, you go to the bar, you're in these big

16:33

cities where you know that those network events are constantly running, right? And that's your your method of success.

16:40

Well, those stories don't translate in a world where your opportunity to network

16:45

isn't there because you've got a 4-hour commute, right? So how do you do that from a rural area, right? And and how do you

16:53

tell stories of your success where place isn't the magic?

16:58

Oo, I love that. I think because you have such a a way with words as well, whether it's through a TED talk or

17:04

whether it's through you just using your own channels, like that's such a worthy message to be sharing.

17:10

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I think nobody understands it better than you do. And I mean, I know I know you do a

17:16

lot of work in person, but you're on trains a lot. Yeah, I'm on trains. Like a lot.

17:23

Yeah. which is very different in the UK than it is in Canada because we we're the distance is so significant in Canada

17:30

to go from like Toronto to Montreal and you know to do that in a day whatnot is

17:35

is quite intense right so it's it's different right and you have to be very

17:41

savvy about how you use presence and that's I think a potential

17:48

that we have to shift I'm curious I You must have seen so many

17:54

shifts and so many changes of being in this space like since 2011 2012.

17:59

It's very cyclical. Yeah. Is there a timeless mistake that

18:05

people organizations keep making that if you could just like wave the magic wand you'd be like okay no one ever made this

18:12

mistake regarding you know remote or flexible work. You make wave the magic

18:17

wand and tomorrow it's gone. What might that be? I would really like people to understand how their policies, their

18:25

decisions, their communications really impact trust. And so if you're an organization who is actually trying to

18:31

bring people back to the office because of whatever you say it is supposed to be, whether it's about collaboration or

18:38

productivity or or whatever it is, but your intent is really just to trim your workforce and not have to pay severance

18:45

because people are going to voluntarily leave. I'd like you to understand what impact that's going to actually have on

18:52

the trust that your existing employees who stay that it it's really detrimental

19:00

to the trust that happens in organizations. And so it's not just about flexibility.

19:05

It's about people understanding how their actions in the space really impact

19:13

reputation. And trust is not a little thing to play around with. I've been investigating trust for over two years

19:20

now because it's such an essential piece of the leadership aspect of building in

19:26

flexibility at work, right? But it's not just about how employers trust their

19:31

employees. Trust is reciprocal, right? And you actually get more trust when you trust first. So these organizations who

19:39

want to lead with, you know, messages that are not clear, that actions that don't follow through, that make it seem

19:45

like they're just not acting in the best interest of employees, they're really,

19:51

really setting themselves up to make it difficult to work for them in the future. I think you're spot on. I saw on

19:57

LinkedIn a few weeks ago, I think it was framed as we're in the post shame like

20:02

economy and it's kind of like again like also the post trust where we all know that we're being like lied to and like

20:09

manipulated and it's super interesting that you've been looking into this for 2 years. I wonder if there is like one

20:16

kind of standout sticky idea or insight about trust. What might that be?

20:22

So trust actually Rachel Botsman is my favorite trust researcher. I'm I'm of the age where I, you know, I don't

20:28

necessarily just look at pop stars. I also have a favorite trust researcher and she she's based in Oxford actually.

20:34

She used to work for for Oxford University and now she's on her own doing consulting and whatnot. But she

20:39

actually has this theory that trust doesn't die. Like trust just doesn't

20:45

disappear. It changes form. So you're always trusting somebody, but who is

20:50

that going to be? Because it's always very contextual, right? So right at the moment, especially with AI, her big

20:58

concern about AI is people actually trusting too easily

21:03

[Music] because AI is a thing, but in a lot of ways it acts as almost human, right?

21:11

What is trustworthy? What's worthy of your trust, right? So there's trust shifts that happen. I had

21:19

like a light bulb moment the other day on LinkedIn when I saw it was like three or four posts in a row and they all had

21:26

statistics in it. It was like 90% of people, 75% of people. And I had this aha moment of like, oh wow, I don't

21:33

trust anything that I'm seeing anymore. Like nothing on this page. No one has verified it. It's all made up numbers.

21:40

And I was like, wow. the even from a year ago, the posts that I'm seeing on

21:46

LinkedIn, my trust for what I'm reading has gone so far down because so few are

21:52

backing up these statements and these numbers with actual cited sources or even checking these numbers. Like we all

21:59

know that AI, as you said, hallucinates and um Oh, yeah. I have a Grammy award

22:05

according to AI. I'm like, oh cool. Congratulations. my bestselling book and

22:11

I do the audible narration and I actually get a Grammy award for spoken word. Generalist 101.

22:17

Generalist 101. This is how you get a Grammy. Get AI to hallucinate at first and make you think it's possible.

22:24

Yeah, that would be an amazing social experiment and not that like not that

22:29

ridiculous to to foresee that that could be a thing. That is actually how Viola Davis got her

22:36

is it pronounced ego the eg o. So, it's it's the the Emmy, the the Grammy, the

22:42

Oscar, the Tony. And she actually got the Grammy award for her pot her audio book.

22:49

Okay. Yeah. Wow. So, that is actually a thing.

22:54

It's a whole kettle of fish. You're very wise to Sorry, I'm interrupting there. I I did want to say

23:00

acknowledge your your point about the the statistics. You'll actually notice in my post I don't use statistics. I am

23:07

a math major and I took significant courses in probability and statistics

23:12

and you know you can prove anything you like with statistics because there's

23:17

statistics and there's damn lies and it's true. One thing I'd like to point out is there is an expert at Stanford

23:22

University. He is very you know cited in terms of like how people do

23:28

hybrid remote or what's happening at the offices and whatnot. But his main success, if you actually trace his

23:35

career and his major entryway into the the area, was based on a survey that he

23:43

did in China with a customer service team of 300 people 12 years ago.

23:49

That study on it's such a small sample size, but that has driven his whole um

23:57

work. It makes me laugh because he's done more significant things than right. But he's he's built that opportunity off

24:04

such a a tiny tiny sample size and personally in lots of ways I I don't

24:10

like citing it because I I have some issues with how it was done. But yeah,

24:16

you can go really really really far with numbers that prove a point that you're

24:22

trying to sell something. Yeah. And this is where I think that being able to critically think is like

24:30

beyond words so important right now and even more so in the next 5 to 10 years.

24:37

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's the thing like especially when employers are coming to you and saying you know we

24:43

have to bring you back to the office because this is what we're trying to achieve. Is it

24:48

because you're bringing me back to the office because you're interested in collaborating, but when I show up to these meetings and I give my opinions,

24:56

you're not respecting me. You're not actioning anything I say. You're not doing anything. So, how are we

25:02

collaborating? So, that's that's where it becomes, you know, you you have to back up what

25:09

you're saying with action, right? And that trust is essential. Yeah. Giant plus one to that. In our

25:16

shared notes, there were two kind of threads that I wanted to follow on. One was a a beautiful very short sentence

25:24

which I would love for you to talk to and that is aging is a gift. Aging is a gift. It's funny because my

25:31

parents were older, right? Like my mom was 41 when I was born. My dad was 39. She was a pioneer. She married a younger

25:39

man in 1964. So I grew up with older parents. So my parents are actually the

25:45

same age as my husband's grandparents were. His parents had him. The the

25:51

parents objected, right? And so they got pregnant and got so they could get married and actually move out. So he was

25:58

born when they were 18. So yeah, it's a significant difference. But his parents

26:03

actually died when my husband was 32 and then 10 years later his his father

26:10

died. Right? So 42, right? My parent, my dad's still alive. He's 93 and my mom

26:16

died at 87, right? So aging is something that not everybody gets and and you

26:23

don't lose it once you get to a certain age. So this push really for retirement

26:28

at age 65, in Canada now it's maybe moved to 67. I think that that's

26:33

misguided because you don't lose the ability to work. But retiring has been

26:40

my mom died of of dementia. And I do think that retiring and then just staying at home

26:47

and, you know, watching TV and she didn't necessarily like going out and doing exercise and all that stuff. I

26:53

think that that's a com a thing that compiles, right? And it's it's not good for your mental health and it's not good

26:59

for your brain. So I think that that's something that we need to change as well in terms of how we work and when we work

27:06

and how long we work. So if I look at my life, I'm 50. I'll be 54 at the end of

27:14

September. And I look at my my life, if I live to the same age my dad is right

27:20

now, I've got another 40 years. How do I want to spend that? And I like the idea

27:26

of going out and talking to people and writing books and sharing ideas and being active a lot more than I like the

27:34

idea of staying at home and just cleaning the house. And I think honestly that's going to shift as well too. So

27:40

aging is a gift that not everybody gets. And you know I I've done deep dives into

27:46

Liam Payne in One Direction and I mean he died at 31. His birthday would have been a couple of weeks ago actually at

27:52

the end of August. Such a shame. Yeah, it's such a helpful reminder. I

27:59

think it sounds a little bit morbid, but it's such a helpful reminder to to remind ourselves that we aren't going to

28:05

live forever. And so, how might we spend this potentially longer, but potentially

28:10

not? Like, nothing is guaranteed. We are not promised any extra days than we already have. And this is where for me,

28:18

life and work all bubble into the one because if I'm going to be spending, you

28:23

know, five days of my week working, like heck, I might as well make it on something

28:29

that I get a lot of meaning or joy. And this is a huge part of the motivation of generalist world of like, okay, how can

28:36

we have more people doing more of the work that energizes them?

28:41

Yeah, I know. And that's the thing that really stands out in your work and what you make public on on LinkedIn. I I love

28:47

how judicious you are in what you share, right? Because you're you're actually one of the most private people in lots

28:53

of ways, but you share so much. It's it's really an interesting way that you

28:58

share, but what you tend to share are the things that bring you joy, like your gardening and, you know, your hiking and

29:05

all of that. Personally motivate you. And that's actually a different way of sharing than

29:11

a lot of women choose to do because they share their family and how they they interact in in their personal world,

29:17

right? So I love that you share your joy. Thank you. That's that's gorgeous

29:22

feedback. The second thread I wanted to pull on which I know will be resonating with a lot of our listeners. You say

29:30

that identity is always shifting and adaptability is a key skill. Can you

29:35

talk more to what you mean by that? Yeah, identity is an actual interesting thing when it comes to actually work and

29:42

life honestly. So, right at the moment, like my kids are now 18 and 20, they're at university. So, my version of

29:49

parenting is shifting. And it's interesting to see how your identity is really tied to that. It's like what who

29:56

am I if I don't have, you know, to wake people up and get them lunch and make them dinner and drive them places and

30:02

all of the things that are involved with with day-to-day parenting. It's it's sort of like moving from like an

30:07

employee to a consultant. I'm now available by phone unless you need me to

30:12

drive to Toronto. But it's it's interesting because everybody relates to work in slightly different ways. So for

30:18

a long time I wor I live in Canada but I I worked for an American division and so people in Canada don't don't understand

30:25

401ks or any of the financial system in the US. A lot of people just got this deer in the headlight glazed overlook.

30:32

And so for a long time I never bothered talking about what it was I actually did. I just said I'd worked for the

30:37

company. So when my job was restructured and I was no longer working for that company, I realized how do I actually

30:44

introduce myself, right? And there's a lot of unlearning that you realize. But it also comes up

30:49

when you notice other people doing it as well too. So my coach I've had for six years now. She lives in Winnipeg, but uh

30:56

I've never met her, but she actually recently decided to go back and actually work for the government, right? Because

31:03

she's building out a leadership development program. And so she's doing it for them, but you know, she's also

31:09

investing in herself by by doing this and having concrete feedback on on the the things that she's

31:15

teaching. But when she did that, it was like, how do I adapt to your shift in

31:20

identity, right? and where do you get really resistant

31:25

when people change, right? So, it's it's interesting to notice within yourself, but also it

31:31

affects how other people perceive you and how that affects your life, too. And so,

31:37

one of the key things that I think that I actually bring to relationships when I when I meet people is I'm I'm very

31:44

actually good at allowing people to pivot and grow and change. And it's a skill that I think is actually going to

31:52

be needed as things changed. And I think it's actually really a generalist thing,

31:57

right? Because so many people in generalist world, if you actually read the introductions, they're so long.

32:04

Sometimes it's just like, oh my god, you do everything. And and it's like it's

32:09

really hard sometimes I find to to look at the end of it and go, I don't actually know who you are. Right?

32:15

because you've got so many skills. Who are you really? And that's where it's like it's how you

32:22

tell the story and how you simplify it so that it translates into an identity.

32:28

And that identity can shift. I think this is what people get stuck on. Like you don't pick one and then you are that

32:33

one forever. Like you can totally pivot and you can change and evolve. And I

32:39

think that's the that's just the beautiful thing of like generalism is

32:44

just being a human. It's like with time you will change and evolve. And when I

32:51

see those really really long introductions on GW, I you know sip with my cup of tea and I I soak them in

32:58

because I'm like wow what an interesting life. Wow, what an interesting path.

33:05

Okay, maybe I cannot put you into a box. That's clearly not the point. But my gosh, it sounds like you have lived a

33:12

life where you really got to follow your curiosity. You got to build upon your passions when sometimes you see people

33:18

take a path and you're like, "Ah, I wouldn't have seen that one coming." But now I can see how the dots connect over,

33:24

you know, maybe a 10year period. And I just get I speaking of things that give me joy, I just get so much joy from

33:31

seeing people just like have the freedom and autonomy and agency to actually live

33:37

a life that feels right for them, not a life that, you know, school or university or your boss or corporates

33:43

told you that you should live. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's one of the things that I've done with my kids

33:48

when they're choosing like university and how they're making those decisions and like you have to make these decisions because it's for you. Not

33:55

because you're making somebody happy, not because you think it's got the it's where the world is right now. It's like

34:01

you're going to have to live it. Like even if you make a choice now, it doesn't mean that that's going to be the

34:08

only path you end up on, right? Totally. How do you how do you set yourself up so that every decision you

34:14

make has a branch that you can I love that. Oh, I just got a good

34:20

visual there. I just I'm very a visual thinker and immediately I saw the visual. See, I'm not a visual thinker, but I am

34:26

a good storyteller. Yeah. So, between us, we'll come up with something magic. I'm curious. So, you

34:33

have been a wonderful part of GW for a fairly long time now, and I'm I'm

34:38

curious, what has what's it been like? Has anything shifted for you? What's your experience in GW been like?

34:45

There's there's a lot of different versions of what a generalist is, right? So, it's funny because in lots of ways

34:52

I'm unique, but I'm not unique, but I am different than some of the generalists that I've come across. Right? I mask

35:00

really well as a specialist. because I tend to I have that ability to go really

35:05

deep, right? So like when I finally left that job that wouldn't give me 100% remote, it took 14 people to replace me.

35:12

So that's actually my red flag is when I'm going that deep that I'm

35:18

irreplaceable, that's a problem because it means I'm off track and it means

35:25

you've built a process that's dependent on me and that's not sustainable for the future. So generalist worlds, you really

35:32

start to understand that, you know, generalists have a lot in common in terms of like

35:37

breadth, but there's varieties of generalists, too. And that's where the archetype quiz that you have for is

35:44

really interesting because everybody kind of scores slightly differently. It's it's weird because I I I still come

35:49

out as an innovator, but I I score pretty high on a couple of the other ones, too, right? So, it's like, oh,

35:55

this is interesting. Yeah. I did a post just today from the GW LinkedIn and it was like rounding up

36:00

our first 15 podcast episodes and when I looked and they're all GW members and

36:06

when I looked at each one I was like they are all so different like everything we've got like Sharon with

36:12

his PhD and then like Demetra in Copenhagen and Terra in Lisbon and

36:18

having like this fractional marketing background and Lucy with her design ops and I was like wow again I feel like

36:25

journalist world is just such a an exception to the rule. Like so often,

36:30

you know, it's like business, get your ICP, narrow it down, go more narrow. And

36:36

I'm like, on paper, these people have nothing in common except for they have

36:42

had this squiggly path and therefore to your empathy point, have such a deep

36:48

level of empathy for the pivots, for the reinventions, for the continuous

36:53

learning. And that's the magic. Yeah, it is actually. And honestly, it's it makes

36:59

the community interesting because you never know who's going to be adding some

37:06

perspective that you never considered because everybody's background is so different, but there's a feeling of

37:11

belonging because everybody knows everybody else is capable, right? Is there's there's a level of respect that

37:17

I find sometimes is missing in other communities, right? And it's it's really

37:23

interesting getting people on the phone, too, because I I sometimes do the calls. It's funny because I I used to initiate

37:28

a lot of the the the membership calls and then I started backing off and I'm just like, "Okay, well, who actually

37:34

books with me, right?" Like because I want to see like who's attracted to me and who talks to me and getting people

37:42

to actually talk and like do a Zoom, you get a completely different perspective of who they are.

37:49

If you only look at the intro that they give you, which is like usually like 30 paragraphs long, and then you have a

37:54

conversation with them, you're getting a completely different person. But it's interesting. Totally. Totally. Right. There there's

38:00

just there's so much more depth when you can actually have like a onetoone and and open up that conversation.

38:06

Yeah. Exactly. But again, the place isn't the magic. It's that connection.

38:12

Yeah. Completely. Completely. Nola, is there anything that I haven't asked you

38:17

that you're disappointed that you're like, "Oh, I really wish I could have had a chance to speak." I'm never disappointed about anything

38:23

you do. I'm honestly such a big fan. So, I think

38:29

that you've covered a great thing. This is always just an opportunity to have a great conversation with you. So, no, I'm

38:35

fine. Amazing. Well, we will be linking all of the different places that people can find

38:41

you, including your podcast, so people can tune in. And thank you so much for coming on the show.

38:47

Yeah, thank you.

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She's a Top Voice who's been working remotely since 2012